Ep. 17 – Effective Delegation and Letting Go of Control in Your Tax Firm with Leslie Liondas

Jamie Gruol: Welcome back to another episode of diary of a tax practice owner. And I am excited to have my friend, Leslie Liondas, a CPA who is a trailblazer in this accounting industry.

She specializes in helping accountants to scale their firms with intention and efficiency. With over a decade of experience, Leslie has also become a certified clockwork partner. This is a certified business advisor with the Institute of Advisors and a certified coach, trainer, and speaker with the John Maxwell team.

She and her business partner Lynn have expertise in process optimization, business advisory, and leadership. And this has been the key to their firm’s success, Supported by a dedicated team of five,

Leslie holds both a bachelor’s and master’s degree in accounting and is passionate about helping other accountants achieve sustainable growth while maintaining a healthy work life balance. We all want more of that in our lives, don’t we? And their spiritual vision is to change the accounting industry from one of burnt out to one where professionals can thrive.

Lynn and Leslie reside in Somerville, Texas with their three dogs. And they continue to push the boundaries of what’s possible in this accounting world. And together they prove that scaling a firm doesn’t have to come at the expense of others. of personal wellbeing. Leslie, I’m so excited to have you here today because we’re gonna be talking about some really juicy stuff, including delegation.

And if you have a team, aspire to have a team, or even are just a solo practitioner, who’s thinking about hiring a part time admin, delegation is going to be the key. So I’m thrilled that we get to pick your brain about this topic. How are you doing today?

Leslie Liondas: I’m doing great. I can’t wait to talk about this one thing that I just love talking about.

Jamie Gruol: Well, I, I’ve gotten the opportunity to meet Leslie in person and she is full of wisdom. And I’m so excited that she does get to share this today. Here on the podcast, Leslie, we love to start by having you kind of go back to the beginning. How did you get to where you are today? And will you take us back to your journey through the accounting field and how you built your firm, how you fell into the clockwork world and how you have built such a sound, culturally successful firm that is allowing you and Lynn to travel a ton and still have a thriving business. 

Leslie Liondas: Well, it started 10 years, actually before 10 years ago, we’ve been in business for 10 years now, but before that I was going through a divorce and I was a manager at Hobby Lobby and I was sitting there like having to work so many hours with a one and five year old going through a divorce and I was like, how can I bring up these kids? Working like this. So my mom told me, she’s like, Hey, go into the accounting industry and you won’t have to work near as much. You won’t have to, you can work around your kids. And she’s, she’s so lied. That was not the case.

Jamie Gruol: Was she in a calendar? Or did she just see other, okay.

Leslie Liondas: but she started in a public accounting firm and then she started her own bookkeeping tax business, but she learned from the public accounting firm. taught her the traditional methods. So she did the exact same thing that I see so many do. And so then it was like, I wasn’t getting paid as a single mom. Lynn wasn’t getting paid. Cause I brought her into this mess and it was just, and we had so many clients. Wanting stuff all the time. And it was like, I can’t do this anymore.

And so Lynn and I just started looking for any effective way to change the mess that we were in to finally find something. And we had my mom and one other team member. And so we were, we were told all the time, well, we can’t do it that way. This is the way we’ve always done it. So I

Jamie Gruol: Mm.

Leslie Liondas: That would never, ever tell me that again, because it became the pain of my existence. So that’s kind of how we started our journey. And we just started just like, how can we fix this one thing at a time?

Jamie Gruol: So I’m curious, how long did it take you to get to that tipping point of like, we can’t do it this way anymore?

Leslie Liondas: I’m not very long because we had over 300 tax returns. And it was like, I found out I didn’t even like doing tax. I was a CPA that hated tax. And I loved relationships and helping people build their business. And it’s like, yes, tax was part of that, but the prep of it was horrible.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: was so bad that you just couldn’t. You, you couldn’t see the forest for being right here in front of you. All you could see was just roadblocks.

Jamie Gruol: Right. Right. Very interesting. So when you grew that, was it just, so it sounds like you had, there was four of you total at that point. What was the, like, where did you go then? Because I think there’s a lot of people that can like resonate with that where they are. They’re maxed out. I was actually talking to a woman the other day and she was telling me she has a team.

I think there was five of them total. And she says we’re maxed on capacity. I haven’t been able to get my team a raise this year because we can’t bring on any more clients to bring in more revenue. We have to do something. And so we were talking in the realm of systems and how to be more efficient so they could bring in more capacity.

But it’s not just that part either, right? Like there’s so much more to it. And I would love, Think of that person when you’re talking to people today, because she’s obviously got a team. She needs to delegate. She’s doing the things, but how are, are they going to move forward? Like how did you guys decide to move forward?

Cause I’m sure you kind of felt the same way, right? Like you were maxed on time. You couldn’t really raise your prices yet because you weren’t confident in maybe doing that, you know, across the board. I don’t know, maybe you were, but a lot of people aren’t. Um, how did you start making like little notches in the path forward to be able to succeed to be where you are today?

Leslie Liondas: We went through every pricing training there possibly was, went through every

Jamie Gruol: What did you learn?

Leslie Liondas: I learned, Hey, you need to value price and Hey, you need to do this. And I’m like, yeah, okay, great. But how do I do that? And how do I

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: that with the clients? Cause I was just like every other accountant out there.

And I’m like, I don’t know how to communicate this. And so what I had to do in, um, 20, the end of 2020, I came into this, um, bootcamp and it was called run like clockwork and they had this crush cringe analysis. so I listed out all of the clients and I’m like, client has only paid me 50 bucks a year. are we even messing with them?

Jamie Gruol: Right.

Leslie Liondas: just went through everything. Cause it clockwork says crush cringe, we went a through F and some of my team even graded them F F F F F. So went through that and so it

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: confidence to start firing because then we could look at it from a financial perspective and also a capacity. And so we went, we quickly reduced that 300 client and in the middle of that, I had to fire my mom because she did not want to change. And so we literally split the firm in half. So, and that crush cringe was also key in that because that was like. All the cringes were my mom’s clients.

Jamie Gruol: I was going to say, wow,

Leslie Liondas: plus unloaded her. And

Jamie Gruol: yeah,

Leslie Liondas: the other team member opted out as well because she liked working for my mom because they did things the same way.

Jamie Gruol: yeah, yeah. You know, it’s interesting. I would love to, maybe we can talk about this later on if that’s where the conversation goes, but there’s a lot of people that feel that same way, whether they’re people like team members who are building to take over the firm. And there’s this. This generational gap where there’s the people who are technically able and change is not so scary when it comes to implementing technology and systems and and doing things a little bit different.

And then there’s this, this. portion of the industry and, and teamwork or team members that are terrified of change. How did you like make that decision to just, I mean, your mom’s a very close relationship, right? Like that’s, that’s a firing of an employee to a whole nother level. Um, so how did you start making that move towards that decision without being terrified of doing it?

I mean, maybe you were terrified, but

Leslie Liondas: I was, I was, um, I had to keep my kids in mind. And quitting wasn’t an option. um, Lynn was also a single mom. And so it was like, what did I start this for? And why am I here? What is my vision? And does this align? Because what I started this for was something completely different than where she was going.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah,

Leslie Liondas: I basically had to pull that bandaid and just, just let the cards fall, fall wherever they did. And the clients that really, truly valued us.

Jamie Gruol: that’s amazing. What was the vision that you had? Will you share that with us?

Leslie Liondas: Yes, it was actually, um, and actually I didn’t even realize it at the time, but, um, when I was getting my CPA license, I had to get the experience. So I was working for a bank and one of my mom’s clients came to me and he’s like, Hey, can you help your mom out? She’s really behind with my stuff. I like being able to see where I’m at because I can’t even see if I’m making money on these jobs. can you help her out? She’s like months behind.

Jamie Gruol: Oh, geez.

Leslie Liondas: And so I was working at the bank, and then I started working for her again, trying to catch his stuff up. so then it became very important to me that this is what people need. And this was before, like, when QuickBooks Online was just, like, coming out and really going into the market. he already saw the value in it, and I’m like, this is what I’m meant to do. And it’s not the proactive, the reactive stuff that a lot of accountants. So it was like, I need to build my firm around that because that’s where the value is. And that’s how I started learning how to talk value to clients because he told me what he valued.

Jamie Gruol: Interesting. Yeah. Well, and I think people don’t do that enough. They don’t listen to their clients and understand what the true need is of, you know, what their pains are and how you can be the solution to those pains. If you can identify, I am skilled in this and I can help this person and these are the pains that they have.

That’s an easy sale, right? And it takes the communication and. Um, slowing down a little bit to be able to have those conversations and realize these 300 clients that we were doing prep for and only paying 50 like that is not the vision, right? This other side is. So when you were started having that conversation, was it just a light bulb moment of I want to run a firm that is a better client experience?

Like, what did that look like?

Leslie Liondas: think a lot of it came from my retail management experience because we were drilled with client experience.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: And so when we had that many clients, we couldn’t give a great client experience and everything was reactive. It was like putting out fire after fire was like, who, whatever was on fire is what we responded to. And then, um, and I know you and I’ve had some great conversations on systems and people would drop off stuff and we’d be like, who, who brought this in? We had no idea when it was brought in. And so I was asking, Hey, can you bring me your bank statements from like, For the last six months, they’re like, uh, they’ve been there for two months.

And I’m like, oh, we’ve got to fix this. So

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: went into systems and how to fix, just the, and it was all along client experience. Like

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: great experience for them? Because

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: at everybody, the way retail works, that’s what it’s all about. I mean, if you

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: and all of them, that’s what it’s about.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah. Amazing. And so then you found Clockwork and how did Clockwork, so they obviously, if you figured out how to fire the clients that were not valuable and that you didn’t like serving, that was a big step. But what else did Clockwork help you do in those early days to start seeing the path back through the forest so you could start actually like achieving the vision and the ultimate destination that you wanted to do?

Leslie Liondas: Actually, I found Clockwork through, um, I was at QuickBooks Connect and Mike Michalowicz actually talked about, it was when Clockwork was, before it was even launched, the book was launched and he was talking about what I was feeling because I had brought three team members on at the same time to service clients.

And it was like, Oh my God, it’s question after question, after question, they’re driving me crazy. And so he described it to just what I was feeling. And so I’m like, I’ve got to know more about that. So I bought the book after it, when it first came out and I started just trying to implement it. But it was like, okay, this is great in philosophy, but how do I actually put it

Jamie Gruol: Right.

Leslie Liondas: practice? So I kind of got stuck there. And then, um, Adrian came out with run like clockwork, a bootcamp, then she broke it down. And then I could see the true vision of the business I wanted. So then it was like, we went all into clockwork and then once they launched their certified partner program, we were like, yes, that fits exactly where we want to go.

So it just, it all, everything just came in when it was supposed to come in.

Jamie Gruol: Love that. So share with us, because you guys now teach other firm owners how to do this. So I would love, would you share kind of what it looks like in your team today? Because obviously you’re not serving low value clients. You’re not pulling your hair out, trying to like make sense of where everything’s at in the process.

Can you give us just a high level of what the firm looks like today and how it’s running smooth and all streamlined?

Leslie Liondas: So today it’s like the bookkeeping and tax side, I don’t really have to mess with anymore. I’m only mainly stay on the marketing side. So a lot of it was developing roles and who’s responsible for what. Um, so we’re not overlapping each other. So we actually, and that came from Clockwork as well, is developing whose role is what, and everybody’s cross trained.

And I see that a lot in firms where

Jamie Gruol: Oh yeah.

Leslie Liondas: aren’t cross trained. And so when one person leaves, especially the owner, the firm will fall apart and it can sustain it for a little bit, but not long.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: I didn’t want a business built around me because of some experiences I’ve had with my mom.

She was. She literally had a stroke and was trying to do somebody’s payroll from the hospital after having a stroke. And I was like,

Jamie Gruol: Oh gosh.

Leslie Liondas: cannot be revolved around me or any one team member, and our team is full of young people that have had babies. So they’ve taken six, seven, eight weeks of maternity leave. So we test it every time of who can leave when and where the, where everybody is in its back to client experience.

Jamie Gruol: Amazing. So what do you, cause a lot of people when we talk to them, they’re like, everything’s in my head and it’s so exhausting. And it, I know like, you know, your mom with the stroke, like it’s all up here. What is something that you would tell that person about how to like, take that first step forward?

Like maybe they, right now is not the time for them to go into clockwork and bootcamp and all the steps that it takes to get there. But. What would you give them as a kind of antidote today that they could take away and be like, okay This is the first step. Here’s how I can start moving forward.

Leslie Liondas: So I did a Google sheet and I just said that my team would put questions on that Google sheet

Jamie Gruol: Mm

Leslie Liondas: them. So we had like a database of questions that they could

Jamie Gruol: hmm.

Leslie Liondas: that turned into processes later on. Cause you can’t write, there’s so many processes in a firm, you can’t do them all. But then what we saw is, okay, this is a common question around payroll. So then that became the first process to write. And it took time. It took years to develop them out,

Jamie Gruol: Yeah

Leslie Liondas: gave us a starting point. Then we would grade them one through five of importance. So the ones that were a one, they were high importance and payroll was the very first one. So I don’t even have to talk about payroll to anybody,

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: started just with a Q and a document of these are the questions and then, and then we would identify where does that process need to go?

Jamie Gruol: Mm hmm.

Leslie Liondas: literally, they were getting this stuff out of my head. And it was a team member that came up with this. She was like, Hey, I just need like a brain dump sheet to get stuff from your head into all of ours. And that’s kind of how we started.

Jamie Gruol: Interesting. That’s and that is true because you know, sometimes you don’t even realize I know I have a very lean team and it’s amazing how when you sit down to do something, you just do it right. Like you just like bing, bing, bing, bing and it’s done and it’s like when you start like breaking it down, it can be really hard.

One of the hacks that if you ever do sit down to try and do a process, one of the hacks that um, I have come up with that works for me is sometimes starting at the end and going backwards because our brains. kind of when you reverse engineer things, your brain actually functions more clearly than if you try to say, okay, do this.

And then I do this. And then I do this because there’s too many paths forward that you can go, right? If you can start at the end and work backwards, it’s much, it’s more linear and you’re, you have fewer like decisions that you make along the way. You can kind of get the high level things out onto a piece of paper and document it.

So how did you guys, um, like what’s, where did you go for systems first? Did you, Did it all stay kind of rudimentary in the early days with like spreadsheets and like Google docs and like this is the process and those types of things or where were you at?

Leslie Liondas: We

Jamie Gruol: I’m asking this because I want people to feel okay about where they’re at because it’s all, it is a journey.

It is an iteration and it takes years to put these systems in place. But as we’ve talked about in other podcasts on here, you know, it’s, it’s the developing your business for the sale, right? Like always thinking through that mindset of the CEO. It’s about. Like you said, we’re being able to remove yourself or any other key role within your business and not having that be the implosion of your business.

And it’s the short term is to like not lose your mind every day you go to work. But the longterm is I’m developing an asset that is something I could sell someday and get my asset value out of it so that I can be rewarded for all of the sweat and blood and tears that I put into it. Over these last 30, 40 years.

In some cases, I think too many people are walking away from their practices. Just saying, yeah, I’ll sell it off to the guy down the street for pennies on dollar. And it’s like, yes. And you could also, you know, put a couple of years of effort into it and double or triple your value., or even a lot more than that in some cases and, and have an asset.

So I just wanted to like throw that little nugget out there, but continue on about like how you guys like iterated on systems through the years.

Leslie Liondas: so we went through six systems for task management that I can actually think of. And that doesn’t count pieces of paper and post it notes. It doesn’t even count any of those and notebooks and all

Jamie Gruol: Whiteboard.

Leslie Liondas: Yes. because we’ve tried so many systems, but then the key was, never put pen and paper to what we actually needed. the whole firm. every one of them solved a little piece. we ended up with all these Mod Podge systems a lot of them lived with me because

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: try them to see if they would work. But then I would try to push them out to the team and they’re like, this doesn’t work for us. So can you, and so we just went through system after system and of course all the pain of going through all those systems the last time.

And it was clockwork that brought my last system to me, which was ClickUp. And, um, but it was more because I was looking for a coaching space. And a bookkeeping space, a tech space, an admin space. So I was looking for all things in one system and we already had pieces of, we already had a portal, so we didn’t need another one. So it’s like identifying what it is that we need. And plus we wanted marketing in the same realm. So it was really looking at what we wanted. And then the most important piece is I didn’t implement it. I’m not an

Jamie Gruol: Um,

Leslie Liondas: better at tech than I am. And she was the one that refused to use any of the tech I used because it was set up incorrectly because I’m an accountant. I have a

Jamie Gruol: yeah.

Leslie Liondas: vocabulary than, than most team members and same with processes. That’s why they didn’t understand most of them because I talk way up here and my team needed it way down here.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah. How did you find your implementer? Yeah. Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: and I quickly figured out she was not a very good assistant. And so we just, and then she just kept growing and growing. She’s been with me for seven years now, but I just kept paying attention to what she was good at because she just didn’t know what she wanted to be when she grew up. So I just kept paying attention. Um, and that was with every team member to see where they thrived and it was paying attention. so whenever I needed a tech problem solved, she could find it on Google with no problem. was the one that always criticized the systems. So she kind

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: the role herself.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: of paper and I’m like, this is what I want it to look like. And I watched the ClickUp videos that they had. And I’m like, but this is what I want for us. And see if you can see what you can do. And so she spent two weeks learning the system and doing it.

And what she came up with was just amazing. and she owns that system. That is her system and we just get to play with it.

Jamie Gruol: So we in Workflows for TaxPros, we call that user the super user of the practice management software, right? Like whether it’s ClickUp or it’s TaxDome or it’s any other software that you’re using, you must have a super user if this is your It is literally the heart of your business

Leslie Liondas: Yes.

Jamie Gruol: you have to have a person that is dedicated to maintaining that heart.

It’s like the one that’s making sure it’s getting the nutrition, the exercise, the air, the oxygen, you know, like all of the things that it needs to be a thriving entity in your business. And I think a lot of people discount what tech is in their world. So I would love to hear your perspective, Leslie, like going from This journey that you are to where you are today.

How important is tech and having a system like click up or tax dome to help with task management and operations and client delivery and keeping all of those pieces moving? How important is that in your business? And then I want to talk about delegation within that realm as well.

Leslie Liondas: So no matter, and I’m a big proponent, I don’t care what system you use, as long as

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: it, because as, as you said, it is the brains of the organization. So we have a saying, if it’s not in ClickUp, it doesn’t happen. Um, what it does is so I had two team members that were pregnant at the same time that went out four days apart a month early. So we,

Jamie Gruol: Yeah. Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: it in a system that way, our client experience would have went downhill because what if they still had it on post it notes, notebooks, and we’re a virtual firm. So how would we know what was up here if it wasn’t in a system? So we were easily able to go to their boards and say, okay, this is what Megan had, this was what Chelsea had. And then divide up those teams, all those tasks throughout the team. And then go through it and say, okay, what is important? What is not important? so we were able to have a team meeting around those particular tasks because they literally met each other in the freaking hospital One going in one going out. So it’s so that and i’ve seen firms Just fall apart right then and there just because they don’t have a system that has everything so nothing marketing sales nothing stopped Because two key members went out at the same time

Jamie Gruol: I want to add one other piece to that and it’s become very apparent in a lot of talk in the industry forums is the lack of hiring that’s able to happen right now. And if you don’t have a tool like ClickUp or TaxDome or something that is on the interwebs. Um, you are severely limiting your pool of candidates for finding key skilled employees that are able to come in and help you, especially with the technical skills that are necessary to do things like tax and bookkeeping.

And if you want to make your hiring easier, I’m not saying it’s going to make it, All easy, but it’s going to be easier to open up that pool when you are able to have people work remotely like Lynn and their team are working. So I just want to throw that out there for a nugget for people that are like thinking, yeah, but my paper systems work.

Five, 10 years from now, everybody is going to have to be virtual. They’re not going to have a choice. So you can either tear the bandaid off now or you can wait five years and make it really painful. And you’re going to have to do it then. So I I’ve seen it in other industries. I came from the healthcare industry where that is exactly what happened.

And there were doctors and nurses that went kicking and screaming at their, in their sixties and seventies saying, I’m never going to do it. They did it. They survived. So just tear the bandaid off. So I’ll do that. I just want to add that little, um, antidote, but, um, yeah, so once you have the system, it sounds like you were then able to re delegate, right?

So you guys have the system to be able to delegate quickly. Can you talk to us about how important those things are? delegation has been to your firm and being successful in the work that you guys are doing and how you have been able to provide such great client experience and allow you and Lynn to travel as much as you do and be involved in other, other aspects of your lives.

Leslie Liondas: So one of the thing a key things that happened today is I had a sick team member She or actually one of her kids was sick And she’s like, and we told her, Hey, just take off. Don’t worry about it. And she’s like, okay, um, do I need to, you know, I’ll go into ClickUp and, and move my stuff. I’m like, no, don’t worry about it.

We got you. Cause we could actually see what she had planned for today. And then we could just go in and delegate. And I just wanted to add that key component too. That was one of the things I did not about whenever I was going through my six systems is how easily it was to delegate to somebody else and then delegate back, especially all the one off tasks.

Cause we do not realize. How many one off tasks when a client requests them something that we spend so much time doing because we can’t delegate it. And

Jamie Gruol: Right.

Leslie Liondas: a system where it’s so easy to put a one off task in is huge because there are a lot of them. And I know I’ve talked to a lot of accountants who think, Oh no, they’re all reoccurring.

No, they’re not. You know, they’re, they’re some, but there’s,

Jamie Gruol: I have this question like, yeah, they’re not.

Leslie Liondas: to be. And so from the client experience, Lynn and I do take, we do do a lot of personal development and a lot of training and a lot of different things. so a lot of times our clients don’t even know we’re gone because is even with every coaching client, there is a day that we reach out to them every single, it is in that system. So they’re like, I don’t even know how you y’all do it. But it’s because we have a system that says, Hey, you need to reach out to this person today.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. I love that. And it’s, When you’re thinking about delegation, can you define, define for us what delegation really should look like? Because I think there’s a lot of, um, Misconceptions about what delegation is and isn’t in a business and not just accounting. Let me tell you, I am not a good delegator.

I will raise that flag. And I was just telling Leslie before we got on, I need to go through her bootcamp and I need to like have her and Lynn help me get my stuff together because I am a, it’s faster for me to do it girl. And I would love to hear how you would respond to someone else who says, yes, but it’s, it’s just takes two minutes.

I’m just like today, I bought airplane tickets. I have an OBM. I shouldn’t be buying airplane tickets, but I wanted to like control the time in which I left and the seats that I got and the level of, of ticket that I got. Was first class going to be too expensive? Was it not? I mean, these are first world problems, but I still was just like, I didn’t end up buying first class because it was too expensive.

They’ve gotten really expensive. Um, but, and I didn’t have points to be able to upgrade. Uh, but anyways, I, I just like, you know, I chose not to delegate that when it could have taken me like 30 seconds to send a message to her and be like, I need to fly on these dates. Please book a ticket. It instead took me 15, 20 minutes and actually 30 minutes because I got interrupted and then had to go back to it and start all over again.

So, um, so talk, talk to the me’s of the world and tell us what delegation is and how we can do it better.

Leslie Liondas: You set me up for the perfect example. I just want to sell that, throw that out there because, um, one of the things that we coach on is having the information is key to delegation. And so you gave so many examples of, I want this seat, I want this cost, and I want this time. That’s information that you could have given to

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: and she could have taken it and ran with it. Because that’s your parameters pretty much all the time. So you

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: communicated all that information. So then also letting her have the permission to actually do it. Whether it be first class or, or comfort or whatever it is, but having the permission and then owning the outcome. So let’s say you’ve delegated this particular task and she booked you first class, well, then she’s got to own the outcome, but the outcome is, did you give her a price range of

Jamie Gruol: Right.

Leslie Liondas: spend?

So that’s where I see a lot of gaps in delegation. And I was the queen of this and I would get mad because I would like, can’t they just fricking do this? And it was because they were always missing some key component of information. then I never, ever let them own, uh, give them to actually make a decision they would come back to me.

Well, this is what I found on Delta and this timeframe

Jamie Gruol: Yes.

Leslie Liondas: this, and this is your seat and they, so then I would have to, okay, yeah, that sounds good. Well, then we

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: of, I should have just done this myself. But

Jamie Gruol: Right.

Leslie Liondas: to actually do that. And then giving that, letting them own the outcome where she, you can, where she booked the flight

Jamie Gruol: Mm hmm.

Leslie Liondas: it wrong, based on everything you gave her, well, then she owns that outcome of that.

And that has been key with my team is owning that outcome. And what has really elevated them.

Jamie Gruol: What does that, what does the owning the outcome look like? Is that them? Like if, if I didn’t give her, like if I said, don’t spend more than 1, 200 on a first class ticket, right? If I said that and she bought a 2, 000 ticket, then I have to, you know, have the conversation with her. Hey, you didn’t follow the instructions.

However, I didn’t say 1, 200 is the limit. And she bought the 2, 000 ticket. It’s on me to then say, next time I need to communicate better. Is that kind of what that own that outcome looks like? Okay.

Leslie Liondas: Yes. And I’ll use an example that I had yesterday with a sales page. I said, this is, here’s all the information you make the sales page, own the outcome, and it didn’t come out quite like I wanted it, but I gave her all the details. She just didn’t it, but she’s like, Hey, this is on me, know, because I, I rushed through it and she owned it. And so I rushed through it because it was just a checklist. And so then we were able to address the situation and I’m like, Hey, next time you don’t have time need to just communicate that that you don’t have time to put into it. And then we make a decision Oh, well, let’s put that off if you don’t have the time, but we but she owned that.

Hey, I messed this up Yeah,

Jamie Gruol: Okay. Well, that sounds like a good framework. Can you repeat it for us again, one more time? Just, just what the, so there’s the information. So giving them the, what you want them to do, that’s your expectation setting, right? There is the, um, permission to make the decision for you and you making, saying, I want you to make this decision for me based on this criteria.

And then there is the owning the outcome, which is. And I’m doing this for myself, guys, because I need this. Uh, only outcome is if something goes right or wrong or goes wrong with the outcome, then the person that is responsible for that owns it. And it is resolved for the next time that this expectation is set or this task is, is tasked out.

Leslie Liondas: And then on owning the outcome too you also don’t want to criticize That because they made the decision because otherwise if you criticize too much, they will never make another decision again

Jamie Gruol: guilty.

Leslie Liondas: yeah, so am I. So you

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: you have to, there’s like a balance there, but once they start making decisions and owning that outcome, eventually their confidence gets higher and higher and higher. And then you see that you’re removed a lot from making decisions. Because what I found with firm owners is 90 percent of their time is spent making decisions for others. Yep.

Jamie Gruol: It’s freaking exhausting, Leslie. Um, I was going to say, and it’s, it’s not criticism that I give what my problem is, is that I, I roll it or reel it out and then I pull it back. Right. So like one time I’ll be like, you go make this decision. And the next time I’m like, I made this decision, right?

Like I don’t give them the permission consistently. And so they become very confused about like, what do I have permission to do? And what do I not? Because I have, Um, kind of stepped into their lane when I should have stayed in my lane. It’s been what I’ve seen. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: a week. And then a two week and then a three week and then a four week, which is what Clockwork is about, but it also, that empowers your team. And I remember when we took one of our first vacations one of our clients came in and he needed to really talk about a big decision he was trying to make and, and so one of the team members was like, Hey, let me bring it to the team and let me see what they say.

And he knew we were out. And, um, and so, and it was a big financial decision. So she’s like, I’ll get back to you by tomorrow, but we’re going to discuss it as a team. That went not only so far with the client, but the team now is like, Hey, can y’all leave again? Because they really liked being able to number one, elevate themselves.

And that is one of the things I see in the accounting industry is we don’t, we like to put a cap on what they learn we don’t do it intentionally. Um, but she’s like, that was the best part of ever making a decision when I was able to take it to the team and we were able to discuss it. We discussed pros and cons, just like y’all do with us. And then I went back to him the next day and I’m like, Hey, this is what I think you need to do. And I will get with Lynn and Leslie when they get back. And, and, but this is what I am confident that the answer is. So the client executed on it and she made the right decision, but it could have went the other way. But she also knew the parameters of making that decision of like, Hey, do I need to contact Linden Leslie? Because we’ve said, Hey, if this is the effect, then Hey, go ahead and reach out to us. But she’s like, I was confident. And so now after that decision, she was like, I got this. Y’all y’all can go away,

Jamie Gruol: What a beautiful opportunity for her to step into her, her next level, uh, as well. I do love that. I love that. Um, okay. I have one last question for you. And then, um, I would love for us to share how people can get to hang out with you guys and learn more. So this, I want you to think back to one piece of advice that you wish you had received when you started your journey Towards growing your practice and becoming the version of Leslie today.

Like what would, what would you impart on our listeners that whether they’re like month 12 in their business or they’re maybe 12 years into their business, but they’re feeling stuck. What is the one piece that you would say to them that would maybe help move them forward?

Leslie Liondas: invest in coaching much earlier. I waited too late because I thought I could figure everything out myself,

Jamie Gruol: Yep.

Leslie Liondas: everything out as a team, but you don’t know what you don’t know.

Jamie Gruol: And can I clarify? Continuing education, is not coaching.

Leslie Liondas: Yes,

Jamie Gruol: Continuing education is somebody standing up and saying these are the new regulations and the things you need to be aware of. Coaching is a relationship with someone that you trust, whom helps you to achieve your goals. And whether that is learning advisory work, whether that is working with Lynn and Leslie on how to delegate better and be a better, you know, business owner, whether it’s working with us to get your systems in place, there are So many different types of coaches you need to determine.

And I’m just going to add onto this. You need to determine what your priorities are in your business. Am I in a season of growth? Do I need a marketing coach? Do I need a systems coach? Do I need to, you know, like there are so many different types of coach, but it is a relationship. CPE is merely them throwing information at you and what sticks sticks, but coaches help you to see bigger for yourself and help you to create that bigger vision and then guide you to that vision with their expertise.

So I just wanted to kind of clarify for people because coaching is new to this industry. It is not something where people have invested. A lot of, of, um, dollars in the past, and it is changing thankfully, but there is so much opportunity to obtain skills and speed up your results with coaching. So I, that, that’s my piece.

What would you add to that?

Leslie Liondas: because when Lynn and I were looking for, we were looking for somebody to help us get, get to where we are now. And it took us a long time to get there. But, and so what we have built in our coaching program is what we were looking for at that time that we wished we would have had. And because we found it way, way too late because we were doing exactly what you talked about.

And we were going to all these conferences and getting all these little nuggets and then trying to implement all these little things and we got nowhere.

Jamie Gruol: Yeah. You have to have a path. You have to have a, a, a, a path, a laid path, a proven path that will get you to the desired result that you want.

Leslie Liondas: Yes.

Jamie Gruol: that that’s what you guys sought out. And I think the trial and error that a lot of people try to put it together themselves and do it themselves, people fall into that trap and they just it’s where the shiny object kind of comes in and you spend a lot of energy with these false starts over and over and maybe you’ll get a little bit of traction and go forward like to the 50 yard line but all of a sudden like something slips back in the other areas of your life and and you’re like you feel like you’re back at square one almost um and so it’s just little tiny increments when you can work with somebody that can help you go to that 75 or even 100 yard line and be successful quickly so um yes i i’m Fully agree with you.

Fully agree with you. Leslie, this has been fantastic. Um, I would love to have you share how people can come and hang out with you and learn more about the art of delegation, the art of building a system that can thrive without them for four weeks. I mean, there are so many practice owners that want to scale and grow their businesses, but they fear doing that because they feel like they won’t be able to ever leave.

So can you share how people can come and find you and hang out?

Leslie Liondas: Yeah, absolutely. Um, our Facebook group is scaling to CEO. So we do a lot of, um, value posts in there. We do a lot of Facebook lives in there. Um, and a

Jamie Gruol: Yeah.

Leslie Liondas: is around the Clockwork system. And if you just want a book to get started, check out the book Clockwork by Mike Michalowicz. Um, Because it, it does.

Um, we are actually, and we are doing masterminds throughout the rest of this year around that book. So it gets you to think differently. So if you don’t do anything else, listen to that audio book or read the book, um, just to get your mind to change a little bit different, but come hang out with us and scaling to CEO.

And we’d be glad to support you any way we can.

If you have questions on specific questions on delegation or actually anything in your firm minus marketing, that is not my zone of genius. Um, feel free to tm me any questions that you possibly have., because what, one of the, one of the things that we do is we just love to add value to this industry because we are on a mission to change this accounting industry from the way that the traditional model has always been.

Thanks for having me, Jamie. I enjoyed it.​